Logs for #nikola for 2016-09-26

01:37:47 -GitHub[nikola]:#nikola- [nikola] felixfontein pushed 1 new commit to translated-paths: https://git.io/vixBm
01:37:47 -GitHub[nikola]:#nikola- nikola/translated-paths e05e806 Felix Fontein: Getting rid of _force_source.
01:42:19 -travis-ci:#nikola- getnikola/nikola#7608 (translated-paths - e05e806 : Felix Fontein): The build passed.
01:42:20 -travis-ci:#nikola- Change view: https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/compare/ceea3d0266d6...e05e806b09b8
01:42:21 -travis-ci:#nikola- Build details: https://travis-ci.org/getnikola/nikola/builds/162666230
01:46:53 -GitHub[nikola]:#nikola- [nikola] felixfontein pushed 1 new commit to translated-paths: https://git.io/vixBV
01:46:53 -GitHub[nikola]:#nikola- nikola/translated-paths 14ba726 Felix Fontein: Computing paths once.
01:51:47 -travis-ci:#nikola- getnikola/nikola#7609 (translated-paths - 14ba726 : Felix Fontein): The build passed.
01:51:48 -travis-ci:#nikola- Change view: https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/compare/e05e806b09b8...14ba72675902
01:51:48 -travis-ci:#nikola- Build details: https://travis-ci.org/getnikola/nikola/builds/162667248
12:19:11 <ToApolytoXaos> greetings folks.
12:23:27 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: is Nikola inspired by Django or is it being implemented *based* on Django's structured scheme?
13:30:19 <ToApolytoXaos> it would be really nice if there was a page in nikola's website with a bit of history, that is how it all started by ralsina, what problems it tried to solve back then, what initial problems were solved that later on became obstacles for further implementation and had to redesign it...such things.
14:39:22 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: Absolutely no relation to Django
14:40:49 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: for some reason, it resembles in a way
14:41:40 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: well, I knew about Django back then
14:42:01 <ralsina> And the "nikola console" command is totally inspired by it
14:42:12 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: I knew it! ^_^
14:42:26 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: but nothing intentional other than console
14:42:26 <ToApolytoXaos> and the conf.py resembles settings.py
14:42:48 <ralsina> conf.py is python because in my previous project I used json for config and hated it
14:43:15 <ToApolytoXaos> yeah baby, I'm not the only one who dislikes json! :D hahaha
14:43:30 <ralsina> I love json, it just sucks as a config format
14:43:37 <ToApolytoXaos> that's what I meant
14:43:56 <ToApolytoXaos> I use it for node.js projects and can easily get confused with my own settings lol
14:44:09 <ralsina> a few weeks ago I did some attempt at switching to another config format and it was awful, so we're stuck with python
14:44:25 <ToApolytoXaos> Python will do ralsina 
14:44:37 <ralsina> There are a ton of things we can't do because it's python
14:44:43 <ToApolytoXaos> like?
14:44:50 <ralsina> like updating settings when we deprecate them
14:45:16 <ralsina> there's hundreds of LOC in nikola handling old settings internally because we can't just set the new one in conf.py
14:45:16 <ToApolytoXaos> updating in what way? by get rid of them?
14:45:47 <ralsina> Suppose I want "AVOID_FOO" to become "USE_FOO"
14:45:54 <ToApolytoXaos> yes
14:46:08 <ralsina> if I could modify conf.py it's easy, I just read it, if there's a AVOID_FOO rewrite it with USE_FOO
14:46:18 <ralsina> Now, all I can do is warn the user to change it himself
14:46:25 <ToApolytoXaos> true
14:46:29 <ralsina> and if he doesn't, then later on it will break
14:46:41 <ToApolytoXaos> OK
14:48:34 <ToApolytoXaos> so you basically want to do the whole upgrading thing behind the scenes and hide it from the user?
14:51:41 <ralsina> No, I would just tell the user and ask before updating
14:52:16 <KwBot> [nikola] ralsina assigned issue #2508 to tritium21: ReCommonMark Compiler https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/issues/2508
14:54:40 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: that's how Django is doing so when a new version can break compatibility with the next major release.
14:55:08 <ToApolytoXaos> certain steps are given in advanced to migrate certain parts of code and then they get removed after 2 major version releases
14:55:15 <ralsina> So is Nikola, I would just prefer to offer the user a chance to "just fix it"
14:55:22 <ToApolytoXaos> bingo
14:55:59 <ToApolytoXaos> that's the most reasonable feedback you could provide to your users
15:03:54 <ndim> ralsina: Would a bit more flexible manner of mapping input files to posts/pages/assets/whatever and to output filenames and urls be desirable for Nikola? I.e. would you accept a pull request in case one materialized?
15:04:07 <ndim> 100% backward compatible of course.
15:04:26 <ralsina> ndim: there is one currently proposed, I think
15:04:44 <ndim> Oh nice.
15:04:48 <ralsina> ndim: honestly, I don't see why not, as long as it doesn't make things complicated
15:04:50 <ndim> I'll go have a look for that.
15:05:21 <ralsina> For example, the current proposal allows posts/pages to say where they want to be placed, which I think makes things complicated for no reason
15:06:08 <ralsina> Because if you are going to have the post source in posts/foo.rst and want it deployed in output/bar/bat.html ... well, how is anyone going to find the source if there is a problem with that URL?
15:06:28 <ralsina> Specially since you can just put it in posts/bar/bat.rst
15:06:43 <ndim> Good URLs don't change, and the UI for putting blog posts into posts/2016/09/26/this-sucks/{index.md,supplemental-image.pdf,extra-image.png} is a bit unclear and confusing compared to posts/2016-09-26-this-sucks-less/{index.md,supplemental-image.pdf,extra-image.png}
15:06:57 <ralsina> But if there's an explanation of a use case that will be improved, and it doesn't make my life supporting users the next N years hell, why not.
15:07:17 <ndim> Of course.
15:07:39 <ralsina> ndim: for images, you can just use posts as an images folder
15:08:04 <ndim> Might be a foo.c source file or whatever.
15:08:07 <ralsina> I *think* an option that makes new_post put things in yyyy/mm/dd is trivial to do
15:08:31 <ndim> The problem is that makes it difficult to see your blog posts when you go into posts/
15:08:33 <ralsina> ndim: I'd need to see a proposal explaining how that's supposed to work, rather than a PR
15:09:04 <ndim> You just see a few 20{13,14,15,16} folders and have no idea about the actual posts hidden away in the directory tree.
15:09:05 <ralsina> So, you would prefer all the sources in a flat folder and output in a per-day hierarchy?
15:09:14 <ndim> I think it should be possible to add a relatively simple regexp matching for the input and format string for the output.
15:09:29 <ndim> The place for that already is in the conf.py
15:09:36 <ralsina> regexp... ouch
15:09:39 <ndim> Just the internals need to change a bit.
15:09:50 <ralsina> You need to change exactly one function
15:09:53 <ralsina> IIUC
15:10:00 * ralsina goes look for it
15:10:01 <ndim> I think so.
15:11:12 <ndim> Good. I'll take a shot at a clean implementation for myself tonight or in the next few days. If it is clean, compatible, and works, I'll migrate my site to it and test it, while refining that proposal.
15:11:13 <ralsina> post.destination_path
15:11:54 <ndim> The interesting question is whether there are places elsewhere in the code which assume a certain relation between the source path and destination_path.
15:12:30 <ndim> This places would need to be fixed to go through the new translation layer instead of just assuming things.
15:12:52 <ndim> I think I have the basic architecture in my head.
15:13:17 <ralsina> And the folder in destination_path comes from Post.folder which is set by ... scan_posts.py
15:13:41 <ralsina> Currently, scan_posts just takes the path of the source. IF you make it do something different, everything else should fall in place
15:14:44 <ralsina> But the important thing is not the implementation, it's designing the UX
15:14:57 <ndim> ralsina: Thanks. I have to leave for a bit, but I'll be back. This is the last thing which prevents me from just using Nikola. Pelican looked really nice with respect to input/output name mapping, but doit and the multilanguage site being built in have me strongly wanting to use Nikola. And get the 3minute+ Jekyll/Octopress build times back down to something more like 3 seconds.
15:15:19 <ralsina> I can fix broken implementations, I can't fix broken ideas to implement :-)
15:15:32 <ralsina> ndim: sure, keep me posted
15:15:54 <ndim> Will do.
15:27:06 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: personally, I don't like the way it looks; that is, <year>-<month>-<day>-<post-title>
15:27:20 <ToApolytoXaos> it has already consumed 11 characters for an unnecessary reason
15:30:06 <ndim> ToApolytoXaos: You do not have to use that.
15:30:38 <ToApolytoXaos> what about SEO?
15:30:56 <ToApolytoXaos> as far as I know, Google displays 50 to 60 characters of title length
15:31:44 <ToApolytoXaos> so if you use a humongous URI that its title gets truncated by crawlers to 50-60 characters, aesthetically it would be a mismatch
15:33:13 <ToApolytoXaos> so, less than 55 characters for title tag would be the ideal for engines like Google and *should* match the URI for memorization purposes
15:34:00 <ndim> Google has no issue finding http://n-dimensional.de/blog/2012/05/01/wd-mybook-live-data-rescue/
15:34:09 <ndim> Why should they?
15:34:20 <ndim> I'll be back in an hour or two.
15:34:41 <ndim> Those 10 additional characters in the URL - why should they change anything?
15:37:27 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: [citation needed]
15:37:40 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: https://moz.com/learn/seo/title-tag
15:38:17 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: And who the fuck are moz.com?
15:39:17 <ToApolytoXaos> one of the best Digital Marketing companies that exist out there that have helped large Inc. 500 companies to set the bar higher due to the respect to standards
15:40:27 <ChrisWarrick> gibberish
15:40:35 <ToApolytoXaos> whatever makes you happy ChrisWarrick 
15:41:07 <ToApolytoXaos> I just expressed my personal opinion and shouldn't be taken for granted.
16:05:17 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: but that's the title tag, what does it have to do with URL length?
16:06:10 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: also, that naming scheme comes from the blogger import, you can use whatever you want
16:12:41 <ToApolytoXaos> obviously I was completely misunderstood, but anyway; I will do my best to keep my mouth shut next time.
16:15:12 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: hmmm I just don't understand. The title tag is the title in your page, it should not be long, as long as you don't use really long title.
16:16:00 <ralsina> Specifically, I have no idea what this part means:
16:16:02 <ralsina> [12:27:06] <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: personally, I don't like the way it looks; that is, <year>-<month>-<day>-<post-title>
16:16:02 <ralsina> [12:27:20] <ToApolytoXaos> it has already consumed 11 characters for an unnecessary reason
16:16:02 <ralsina> [12:30:06] <ndim> ToApolytoXaos: You do not have to use that.
16:16:02 <ralsina> [12:30:38] <ToApolytoXaos> what about SEO?
16:16:02 <ralsina> [12:30:56] <ToApolytoXaos> as far as I know, Google displays 50 to 60 characters of title length
16:27:45 <ToApolytoXaos> what about the rest of the lines?
16:28:12 <ToApolytoXaos> regards to what is ideal for engines like Google et al?
16:33:50 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: what I have tried to explain and miserably failed it's explained by Google itself here https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en//webmasters/docs/search-engine-optimization-starter-guide.pdf
16:34:35 <ralsina> I have no idea if google dislikes long URLs, I just suppose we were all co discuss thatonfused about you using the title tag t
16:34:46 <ralsina> I have no idea if google dislikes long URLs, I just suppose we were all confused about you using the title tag to discuss that
16:34:52 <ralsina> Sorry, messed up 1st typing :-)
16:35:30 <ToApolytoXaos> title tag and a URL link *should* much but not necessarily
16:35:45 <ralsina> Nikola does match the title and the URL
16:35:45 <ToApolytoXaos> if they do though, it's best for website's rankings
16:36:02 <ToApolytoXaos> how about a humongous title tag?
16:36:13 <ToApolytoXaos> doesn't it trancate it like how blogspot is doing?
16:36:17 <ralsina> Then you get a humongous URL, but the solution is to not use a very long title
16:36:30 <ralsina> Nikola doesn't truncate anything AFAIK
16:36:39 <ToApolytoXaos> I see
16:37:07 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: for example: http://ralsina.me/weblog/posts/de-san-isiddro-a-malta-y-de-vuelta.html
16:37:18 <ralsina> is that very long? I don't know. The URL and the title match
16:37:20 <ToApolytoXaos> that's not so big
16:38:16 <ralsina> http://ralsina.me/weblog/posts/reporte-de-viaje-13-trepar-la-torre-eiffel-por-fuera-solo-phineas-y-ferb-nosotros-por-adentro-y-gracias.html
16:38:39 <ToApolytoXaos> OK, that's humongous lol
16:38:44 <ToApolytoXaos> how about alias?
16:38:52 <ToApolytoXaos> does Nikola support them?
16:38:55 <ralsina> Sure
16:39:00 <ralsina> well, in a way
16:39:06 <ralsina> you can use the REDIRECTS option
16:39:15 <ralsina> BUT, real aliases have to be done on the webserver level
16:40:11 <ToApolytoXaos> isn't slag responsive for generating the post/page file?
16:42:12 <ralsina> slug? yes
16:42:18 <ToApolytoXaos> lovely
16:42:24 <ToApolytoXaos> let me double validate something then
16:42:32 <ralsina> If yuo want to make a shorter-nicer URL, just change the slug
16:44:10 <ToApolytoXaos> OK, I have double checked something
16:44:35 <ToApolytoXaos> is it possible to allow the user to set the slag of his choice upon creating a new post?
16:44:40 <ralsina> Sure
16:44:44 <ralsina> Just edit the file
16:44:58 <ToApolytoXaos> I meant with the new_post command
16:45:26 <ralsina> Well, only in the sense that the title you give will be used for it
16:45:28 <ToApolytoXaos> to optionally allow the user to modify the slag curing initial creation of a new post
16:46:16 <ralsina> I don't see how that's valuable
16:46:46 <ralsina> I mean, you want the slug to be "my-trip-to-london"? THen if your post's title is "My Trip To London" that's what it will be.
16:47:01 <ToApolytoXaos> I think you didn't understand me
16:47:06 <ToApolytoXaos> let me tell you what I did ralsina 
16:47:08 <ralsina> Maybe if you can give me an example
16:47:14 <ToApolytoXaos> I have created a humongous new post
16:47:29 <ToApolytoXaos> the result is the following: a-very-large-title-that-should-have-let-the-user-to-truncate-the-slag-name-in-order-to-avoid-creating-a-humongous-url.txt
16:47:38 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: ok so far
16:47:47 <ToApolytoXaos> the metadata is inside that .txt file
16:47:52 <ralsina> Yes
16:48:05 <ToApolytoXaos> if I edit the slag, it would create a shorter .html file
16:48:09 <ToApolytoXaos> inside output/
16:48:23 <ralsina> yes
16:48:30 <ralsina> slug, not slag, but yes :-)
16:48:37 <ToApolytoXaos> ...what about this railroad .txt file
16:48:48 <ToApolytoXaos> slag, slug, snail, you name it lol
16:48:54 <ralsina> mv posts/a-very-* posts/foo.txt
16:49:27 <ralsina> If the problem is the file name is too long, rename the file :-)
16:49:33 <ToApolytoXaos> that's why it would be convenient to allow the user to create a short .txt based on slug from inside the new_post command
16:49:46 <ralsina> nikola new_post -t short-slug
16:49:59 <ralsina> And then when you actually create the content, give it whatever title you want
16:52:40 <ToApolytoXaos> OK, that makes sense of course
16:54:57 <ralsina> Personally even having to provide the title at the beginning is weird
16:55:06 <ralsina> much less the URL where I want the content to live
16:55:27 <ralsina> I would love to find a way to have things written without title, and then at some point "name them"
16:55:48 <ToApolytoXaos> an example?
16:58:32 <ToApolytoXaos> well, the simplest thing that came in mind is a tmp location inside a Nikola project that would held draft files with a sequential number in front of them and at any moment a user could switch it to a post or a page with a create_metatag command
17:00:25 * ToApolytoXaos meant metadata
17:02:00 <ralsina> yes, but it's just more confusing
17:02:44 <ralsina> So, I just use anything as title "Draft sept 28" or whatever, and then change title/slug/filename when ready to publish
17:04:27 <ToApolytoXaos> OK, how about make it generate a basic .meta file that would contain the date that this draft has been created
17:04:52 <ralsina> .meta files are to be avoided unless you are writing  a format broken enough to need them.
17:04:58 <ralsina> Worst idea ever.
17:05:22 <ToApolytoXaos> but it's suited in draft's idea based on what you said before
17:05:39 <ralsina> Well, worst idea was the old-old metadata format, where you used a .meta file that had no labels for its fields
17:05:55 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: could be
17:06:18 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: but it's just a minor annoyance, and I don't think the "fix" is much bette
17:06:21 <ralsina> better*
17:06:40 <ralsina> There are tons of things Nikola "could" do but doesn't because I suspect it would be just confusing :-)
17:07:27 <ToApolytoXaos> it depends
17:07:49 <ToApolytoXaos> but for sure, your idea is plausible
17:08:15 <ToApolytoXaos> even if draft was a .rst file, it should have added *only* a date metadata
17:08:34 <ToApolytoXaos> this way it would be easier to move to posts or pages
17:08:39 <ToApolytoXaos> but that's just a theory
17:08:56 <ralsina> you can move posts to pages by just moving the file. The other way around you need to add a date.
17:09:20 <ToApolytoXaos> yeah I know
17:09:32 <ToApolytoXaos> I meant for the draft concept
17:09:37 <ToApolytoXaos> based on what you said before
17:39:16 <ChrisWarrick> ralsina: What do you think about #2502? Isn’t it going too far in your opinion, at the same time not really implementing what it claims it does?
17:39:30 <ralsina> ChrisWarrick: looking...
17:39:42 <ChrisWarrick> ralsina: https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/pull/2502
17:40:40 <ralsina> hmmm
17:40:50 <ralsina> I am not sure I understand what that PR does
17:41:34 <ralsina> So, it passes the folder from POSTS as destination_base
17:42:23 <ralsina> lines 166:173 of post.py just confuse me
17:43:03 <ralsina> we get different folders for each language because they rely on metadata
17:44:17 <ralsina> And then when calculating the destination path, we get it from there
17:44:17 <ralsina> So, what happens if I don'thave a path metadata?
17:44:17 <ralsina> I get "self.folder_relative" which means ... ???
17:44:55 <ChrisWarrick> relative path to what used to be destination dir before
17:48:59 <ralsina> eek
17:49:15 <ralsina> naming things is hard
17:49:51 <ralsina> I would reject it as is. Instead of throwing code at us and then having to figure it out, a feature should start as an idea of how the user would use it.
17:50:04 <ralsina> I'll put that in a review comment
17:51:40 <ChrisWarrick> Shall we close this?
17:53:26 <KwBot> [nikola] Kwpolska opened issue #2513: Add an option to `nikola new_post` to create yyyy/mm/dd directory structures https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/issues/2513
17:59:36 <ralsina> ChrisWarrick: I don't know
17:59:48 <ChrisWarrick> Let’s leave it open for now
17:59:55 <ralsina> I don't want to be discouraging, it can still (maybe) be turned into a useful thing
18:00:08 <ralsina> felix has a tendency to write code I can't read, tho
18:00:10 <ChrisWarrick> Or maybe it can’t
18:00:17 <ChrisWarrick> you and me both
18:00:19 <ralsina> Reason not to merge it :-)
18:05:44 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: when I first started asking questions about certain portions of unreadable code and you said "I don't know; it's not my code", was it felix's code?
18:06:04 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: may be! Or maybe not
18:06:09 <ChrisWarrick> run git blame
18:06:09 <ralsina> I have written code I can't read
18:06:15 <ToApolytoXaos> oh my...
18:06:20 <ChrisWarrick> where's this code?
18:06:32 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: let me check my history
18:11:46 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: TranslatableSetting is my work.
18:12:29 <ralsina> I just never had to fix it, so I never learned it
18:12:29 <ToApolytoXaos> I can't remember which code was it (and I'm still looking for it), but it was a code with single character loop variables
18:12:45 <ralsina> TSettings rings a bell, it was probably related
18:12:53 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: As ralsina told you, a defaultdict has a function that returns default values for unknown fields
18:12:53 <ralsina> and I *did* figure it out quickly ;-)
18:13:19 <ChrisWarrick> https://github.com/getnikola/nikola/blob/master/nikola/utils.py#L331 was the link
18:13:48 <ToApolytoXaos> no, not the lambda
18:13:59 <ChrisWarrick> format, is it?
18:14:03 <ChrisWarrick> or langformat?
18:18:07 <ChrisWarrick> You see, TranslatableSettings are a bit tricky, mainly because they used to emulate strings (they don’t anymore).
18:19:48 <ChrisWarrick> What langformat is supposed to do is to take a dict of {language: (format_args, format_kwargs)} and translate each language value.
18:22:52 <ralsina> ChrisWarrick: I am going to be relatively close to you next month!
18:23:36 <ralsina> ChrisWarrick: a mere 1500km +- 1000 I guess
18:24:35 <ToApolytoXaos> I liked the "relatively close" part
18:24:50 <ToApolytoXaos> for a seminar ralsina?
18:25:02 <ChrisWarrick> ToApolytoXaos: It also needs to do some magic to figure out the default string to translate (d). In the next loop (f, a), we are searching for languages that might be hiding in formats. And finally, it loops through all languages, gets the string to translate, and does some other magic to get translations in the end. Not sure how this works; probably never used.
18:25:02 <ralsina> well, I live in a large country. 1000km is like, a weekend trip :-)
18:25:19 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: work sprint, almost 2 weeks in The Hague
18:26:02 <ToApolytoXaos> nice
18:26:04 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: I see
18:26:08 <ToApolytoXaos> that's good to know
18:27:21 <ChrisWarrick> ralsina: over 800 km in a straight line. Closer to 900/1000 if you felt like driving there.
18:27:34 <ralsina> Well, I don't drive
18:27:50 <ralsina> Plus I will be locked in a golden cage with the rest of the developers
18:28:25 <ToApolytoXaos> lol ralsina 
18:28:48 <ToApolytoXaos> sounds like a fun party
18:28:49 <ralsina> Well, actually it's a Marriott, so not GOLDEN but not bad
18:29:08 <ChrisWarrick> Only 6 hours by plane+train! (Don’t bother)
18:29:13 <ToApolytoXaos> in what languages are you going to be coding in?
18:29:30 <ralsina> My current project at work are ~70/30 python/go
18:30:02 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: have no worries; I will be waiting ralsina at the airport and give him my best horse!
18:30:04 <ToApolytoXaos> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Dutch_dwarf_horse.jpg
18:30:11 <ToApolytoXaos> he will there with you in no time
18:30:49 <ralsina> We have awesome tiny horses here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falabella
18:32:21 <ToApolytoXaos> wow...beautiful horse
18:33:50 <ralsina> My son's horse is what's called a "petiso", which is a short horse, and it's about twice the size of those :-)
18:35:01 <ToApolytoXaos> cool :)
18:35:12 <ToApolytoXaos> but of course, only a LLAMA is fabulous! https://imgur.com/gallery/OXTKD
18:36:32 <ralsina> well, you can't ride a llama. But it can carry your golf clubs!
18:37:00 <ToApolytoXaos> :D lol
18:37:03 <ralsina> https://ellisphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/2009_ellis_photos-321.jpg
18:37:17 <ralsina> Also, that fabulous animal was not a llama, that was a vicuña :-)
18:37:31 <ralsina> Well, I think
18:37:33 <ToApolytoXaos> hahahaha :D that's so cool
18:38:00 <ralsina> It's surprisingluy common! https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=llama+caddie&tbm=isch&imgil=iAOVa7jU-YxdMM%253A%253BtAksJHF4U0e7EM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.richardellisblog.com%25252F%25253Fp%2525253D154&source=iu&pf=m&fir=iAOVa7jU-YxdMM%253A%252CtAksJHF4U0e7EM%252C_&usg=__8vfqF_m9c3XcQWyrLCtYhjUqMdY%3D&biw=1237&bih=660&ved=0ahUKEwiN9brK1q3PAhWIxpAKHf4hArIQyjcIOA&ei=w2rpV82HA4iNwwT-w4iQCw#imgrc=iAOVa7jU-YxdMM%3A
18:38:06 <ralsina> sheesh google
18:38:43 <ToApolytoXaos> to be honest looks like alpaca
18:39:27 <ralsina> could be. Damn camelids.
18:39:51 <ToApolytoXaos> :)
18:40:19 <ToApolytoXaos> by the way ralsina, how does maté tastes?
18:40:52 <ralsina> Well, if you never had it before, and are not used to herbal teas, you are going to hate it with the intensity of 1000 suns
18:41:22 <ralsina> Specially if you follow an argentinian's instructions to "drink it properly" which means without sugar because we are a bit of an asshole in general.
18:41:57 <ralsina> BUt it's temporary, after a while you get used to it, and it's the best caffeine delivery system available other than IV drip
18:42:07 <ToApolytoXaos> yeah, that's the best way to consume a hot herbal tea
18:42:10 <ToApolytoXaos> without honey or sugar
18:42:27 <ToApolytoXaos> it contains caffeine in it? -_-
18:42:36 <ralsina> it's ... a strong, fairly bitter tea :-)
18:42:42 <ralsina> And it has some caffeine
18:43:03 <ralsina> The way we drink it, you may end up drinking 1 liter in a morning. So a little caffeine becomes a lot of caffeine.
18:43:18 <ralsina> Other teas are not usually sold in kilo bags.
18:44:15 <ToApolytoXaos> I see
18:44:25 <ToApolytoXaos> I prefer collecting my own herbs from nature
18:44:34 <ToApolytoXaos> ...whatever it has been left
18:48:43 <ToApolytoXaos> oh, now that I remember ralsina 
18:48:58 <ToApolytoXaos> can you find uncleaned almonds over there?
18:49:08 <ToApolytoXaos> with their shells?
18:49:32 <ralsina> sure
18:49:36 <ToApolytoXaos> awesome!
18:49:36 <ralsina> but why? :-D
18:49:56 <ToApolytoXaos> clean a few, take the shells, boil them and sieve the juice
18:50:11 <ToApolytoXaos> drink that juice day and night
18:50:15 <ToApolytoXaos> a mug would do
18:50:25 <ToApolytoXaos> it will regulate your blood pressure and your heart bits
18:50:31 <ToApolytoXaos> *beats
18:50:44 * ToApolytoXaos says "darn English words -_-"
18:52:00 <ralsina> I take drugs for that
18:52:40 <ralsina> Either almonds have an active principle and I should not mix them with the drugs my doctor gave me, or they don't and they would do nothing.
18:54:03 <ToApolytoXaos> so you trust drugs more than nature itself?
18:54:07 <ToApolytoXaos> lol ooooookay
18:54:56 <ralsina> of course
18:55:13 <ralsina> herbal remedies are, best case, drugs
18:55:28 <ralsina> worst case, not drugs :-)
18:55:42 <ChrisWarrick> speaking of yerba mate, suggestions for a newcomer?
18:56:06 <ToApolytoXaos> sure thing
18:56:21 <ToApolytoXaos> what do you want to try ChrisWarrick?
18:56:27 <ChrisWarrick> dunno
18:56:31 <ChrisWarrick> hence “newcomer”
18:56:49 <ChrisWarrick> I’m kinda getting bored by cheap “English” teas from the supermarket.
18:57:02 <ToApolytoXaos> you could try something simple, like boiling some anise
18:57:03 <ralsina> ChrisWarrick: well, you can start with mate in a bag and make it like tea
18:57:15 <ToApolytoXaos> anise is very nice for us computer users
18:57:39 <ToApolytoXaos> boil it well, sieve it, and let it cool for 2-3 minutes while in the mug
18:57:47 <ralsina> best thing ever is getting one of these: http://mla-d1-p.mlstatic.com/practi-mate-listo-autocebante-camionero-automatico-500cc-11714-MLA20048506516_022014-F.jpg?square=false
18:58:03 <ralsina> I use one similar (larger) for mate but I expect it works for any tea
18:58:29 <ralsina> basically, it's a cup full of leaves, and a thermos full of hot water. you sip, that makes more water get to the tea
18:58:44 <ralsina> So, if you take a sip every 30 / 45 seconds, it's infinite tea
18:58:56 <ToApolytoXaos> I would like to get one of those traditional ones, but I will be looking like Popeye the sailor man
18:59:22 <ralsina> ToApolytoXaos: oh, there's dozens of varieties
18:59:34 <ToApolytoXaos> yeah, I have found a few dozens online
18:59:42 <ralsina> For example, this is called a mate pampeano: http://almadecampo.com.ar/almadecampo/images/DSC_0414.JPG
18:59:57 <ralsina> You put the yerba in the middle, and pour the hot water down the holes on the side
19:00:16 <ToApolytoXaos> yerba? you mean the herb?
19:00:19 <ralsina> makes it harder for you to "wash" the leaves
19:00:20 <ralsina> yep
19:00:23 <ToApolytoXaos> nice
19:00:52 <ralsina> basically, if you put too hot water, or too much water, or water all over the yerba, you get one very strong sip and nothing else
19:01:23 <ralsina> A good "cebador" (the person making the mate) can make one serving of yerba last one hour or so
19:02:15 <ralsina> If you guys are ever down here I'll show you around. Have a guest room and everything.
19:07:04 <ToApolytoXaos> nice. If I ever again get into an airplane, I will let you know ralsina 
19:09:26 <ToApolytoXaos> ChrisWarrick: the simplest thing you can make yourself is 2-3 dried cloves with a cinnamon stick, boil them, sieve them carefully, and drink the tea. enjoy!
19:37:49 <ralsina> q
19:37:51 <ralsina> oops
19:41:16 <x1101> ralsina: this is _not_ vim. Much as I wish it were
19:42:01 <ToApolytoXaos> where's the colon then x1101? ;)
19:42:31 <ToApolytoXaos> of course it depends on the mode
19:49:21 <ralsina> Actually, I was trying to autocomplete a chrome tab :-)
20:03:25 <ToApolytoXaos> ah okay :)
20:48:07 <ToApolytoXaos> ralsina: after many years of using Python, what was the coolest thing you have ever seen in live action that blew your mind?